Episode Transcript
Becca: Hello, and welcome to the Future Is Sound, a partnership in hearing podcast brought to you by Oticon Canada. I'm your host, Becca Angel. Thanks for joining me on my first podcast journey, where we will chat broadly about all things hearing. We will launch fun, new episodes every month. If you have any suggestions or comments, be sure to get in touch. Okay, let's get started.
Great, okay. Thank you guys so much for joining me today. We have two guests today joining us. We have Gael Hannan and Shari Eberts. Gael, am I saying your last name right?
Gael: Yes, you are.
Becca: Okay, got it. Gael is on Vancouver Island. Shari, are you joining us from New York? Is that right?
Shari: Yup, in New York City.
Becca: Very cool, nice. Both Gael and Shari are hearing loss advocates, speakers, and writers. Their most recent book was just published a few months ago called Hear and Beyond: Living Skillfully with Hearing Loss. We'll talk a little bit about the book today, which is the ultimate survival and communication guide for living your best life with hearing loss.
They both have hearing loss themselves. The book shares a lot of really great experiences that they've both had, which I think are really relatable for a lot of people, and provides lots and lots of tips on living peacefully and skillfully with hearing loss. Again, thank you both so much for being here. I'm really excited to finally chat with you guys.
Gael: It's a pleasure to be here.
Shari: Thank you for having us.
Becca: Yeah, awesome. We're still getting into the flow of our partnership and hearing podcast, but it's been really fun so far. I think you guys might be our fifth or sixth guests that we've had. We're adding more and more all the time, so it's been really fun. I know that writing a book is probably a really vulnerable thing to go through. Gael, you've written a book before in 2015.
Gael: I did. I wrote a book called The Way I Hear It: A Life with Hearing Loss. It was more of a memoir, which so many books lately have been wonderful books by people living with hearing loss or a cochlear implant. I knew the minute I finished that I wanted to write another one because people with hearing loss have to go to so many places to get information.
There are so many places that they don't do it, they don't know where to go. There was no operating manual, as we like to call it. I'd had to learn the hard way through my lifelong experiences with hearing loss. I reached out to Shari whom I knew. We were acquaintances, friends, and said, do you want to do this? She said, sure. You mentioned being vulnerable, and that was really the key. Maybe Shari can fill in more on that.
Shari: Yeah, absolutely. I was thrilled to hear from Gael because I had always admired all the advocacy work that she did. I had always wanted to write a book as well. I think I had mentioned that to Gael at an HLAA conference many years before. I'm like, I really want to write a book. When she reached out, I was like, yey, this is my chance.
We've really focused on skills more than the memoir. Although we do share so much of ourselves and so much of our stories in the book, we really wanted to do something a little bit different. I love that word skills and living skillfully because a skill is something you can learn. We feel that everyone can learn to live better with their hearing loss. This is that operating manual and that guide that we wish we had when we started off on our hearing loss journeys.
Becca: I read the book. I'm a clinician as well. Although I don't have hearing loss, lots of people close to me have hearing loss. My dad had hearing loss. I found a lot of the examples that you guys provided in the book, you say it's not a memoir, but you give examples of things that happened to you but then turned that into an actionable item. Like, here's how I could have done this differently or here's what I learned from this experience. I just think it just provides really useful tangible things that people can take away.
Gael: We did exactly what we set out to do. I want to go back to that word vulnerable because it was very interesting. I was born with hearing loss. Shari's was an adult onset, but both of us had lived for many years. As I mentioned earlier, we had to find our way. We found in the discussion that goes into as we formulate, what is this going to be that we had come to some very, very similar conclusions about how to change things in our life?
This was a thing of joy for us to write. I didn't expect that setting out. It wasn't something that Shari and I talked about constantly. But even though we've lived with it for years and people look at us, it's kind of wow, they just got it together, it still can reduce us to frustration and isolation. I always used to say, I'm one dead battery away from hysterics. We are not immune from the ongoing emotions of hearing loss, and we're hoping that comes through in the book.
Becca: Yeah, absolutely. I had written down a couple of things that really stood out for me. Although I don't have hearing loss, I found that some of the things that you mentioned in the book can apply to other things that people are going through. The mindset shifts that you guys talk about and that whole process there, where we have to change our emotion or behavior towards something and try to see the positive in that. It really resonated with me, Gael.
You talked a little bit about feeling helpless or you don't want people with hearing loss to feel helpless. We need to provide tools to take charge and feel more powerful. I've had lots and lots of issues with my knee. I've had recurring knee injuries over and over again. I've most recently re-torn my ACL for the fourth time. It's so easy to just be so negative and ask yourself, why me? Why is this happening to me?
If only I could turn back time or change this or change that. I'm not going to be able to do all these things that I could do before. It's so easy to fall into that, but I really liked when you were talking about this mindset shift to say, okay, let me look at this from a new perspective. What can I do? How can I see the positive in a thing that makes me feel really negative, which I really, really liked in that part of the book.
Shari: Absolutely. I'm glad that that resonated with you so much. I think that was one of the main things that Gael and I really wanted to get across in the book, is that you can live better. The way that you feel about your hearing loss and the way that you think about it impacts your behaviors. If you can change your behaviors and change the way you think about it, you can live better and more peacefully with your hearing loss. I'm glad that that came across.
I think it does come from other life experiences, too. We've all had other challenges. I'm a huge yoga person. A strong message in yoga as well is that you have to stay in the present moment, you have to do the best that you can with the current situation, and then move on to the next one and do that again. That's something that very much applies to hearing loss, too.
Gael: We also say it's not something you can do overnight. We're not saying, well, just do this and then you'll be fine. It was a process. It took time. These realizations for us took time. Again, if we can plant a couple of seeds and help someone shorten out some of those long processes in some way, then that's what we set out to do.
Becca: Yeah, you guys talk a lot about it taking practice and taking what you learn and implementing. It is exactly right. It's not going to happen quickly. I'm sure there’s setbacks. You got to work at it in order to improve that.
Gael: Shari, where would you practice some of these things?
Shari: Gael loves this because you would think that the way you would practice is on a family member or someone close to you, but I say, no way. It's so much easier to practice with a stranger. If you're on a bus or if you're on the airplane, you can turn to the person and say, I have hearing loss, please let me know when they call my stop. You can try out different words, different scripts, and there's no downside because you're probably never going to see that person again, hopefully.
What you learn, or at least what I learned from that, is that you find your rhythm. You find your little speech and the effective speech that works for you and rolls easily off your tongue. Again, for all of us, that's going to be different. How do we identify ourselves? What do we say?
The other thing is you learn that people want to help. Whenever I've done that on a bus or in a store, almost every time, I get a positive reaction like, oh, okay, well, sure, I'll definitely be able to help you out. They tell you about their uncle, their brother, or someone else who has hearing loss. It actually goes back to that vulnerability a little bit. If you're vulnerable, then people feel that they can be that way with you, too.
Gael: I just wanted to explain why I found it funny because when she first mentioned it, I had this vision of Shari getting onto a bus, which by the way, she never gets on a bus. All right, you get on a bus, I have this vision of her going, hi, there. Hi, I'm Shari, I have hearing loss. Hey, you across the aisle. Hey, I have hearing loss, just want to let you know.
Shari: Maybe it didn't go exactly like that.
Becca: Another thing I had written down, Shari, was the example that you give in the book when you're hiking with your family. We're talking about advocating for yourself, by going on the bus and saying, look, I have hearing loss, I need some assistance or whatever, and you're just saying, I can't hear in the back. No one's really doing anything and they're like, come on, use your words.
It's such a small change, but taking action there and being like, you know what, I need to be second in line here in order to succeed. Sometimes we think we're communicating efficiently, or we think that we're doing everything that we can, when in fact, we're not. I really like that part, too.
Shari: 100%. We say a lot in the book that identifying yourself as someone with hearing loss is so important, but it's not enough. You need to express very specifically what it is you need other people to do and to ask them to do that in as nice of a way as possible. It's funny because even as an advocate, I was expecting my family to read my mind. We know that people can't read your mind. It was such a small thing, like you said, but a big change in terms of how it went.
Gael: I think our children probably are better communicators than our spouses. I guess I'm speaking more for myself, Shari, because I haven't met your children, unfortunately. I'm guessing that they grew up. Once you came out of the hearing loss closet, and with my son, Joel, I had hearing loss right from the get-go in his life.
He learned as a child that if he wanted something from me, he had to get my attention. As a child, he would turn my face. Now, when we're talking, if I turn away my head, he'll stop talking until I bring it back. Sometimes I find it annoying, but still, he's practicing good communication. He's making a point, though.
Becca: Yeah. Not all of us can communicate effectively with everyone all the time, regardless of whether we have hearing loss or not. I feel like we jumped ahead very quickly. But I was going to ask you guys, for anyone listening that hasn't read the book, just start out the book. You guys talk about this three-legged stool model. I was wondering if you guys could explain that to anyone listening who hasn't read the book.
Shari: We love our three-legged stool.
Gael: We love it.
Shari: The funny thing about a three-legged stool is that it never wobbles, even if you're on bumpy ground. We're still trying to figure out why that is. We've determined that it has something to do with physics, but we don't know exactly.
To live skillfully with hearing loss, there are three parts of the stool. The first is the mind shifts that we had been talking about earlier in terms of having a more proactive attitude in terms of solving problems, and then technology is the second leg. All types of technology, obviously hearing aids, cochlear implants, but also other tech tools, remote microphones, apps. Anything techie that'll work, we are all for that.
The last leg is the communication game changers, which are behavioral changes, things like identifying as someone with a hearing loss like we were talking about, speech reading, or other things. When you put all those together, you really have what we say the magic happens. That's when you really have that great base of skills to take to any situation.
Becca: Right. Was this the collaborative idea, where you guys are in a brainstorming meeting and you're like, this is it, we've got the solution here?
Gael: Rebecca, we had the three groups. Shari came up with a three-legged stool. But at this point, sometimes we can't remember who came up with what. We started this in May of 2020, the pandemic just hit. We published it last year, so it was a two year process. We did a lot of talking, a lot of writing, a lot more discussion, and we would change things.
Who wrote what? We can't really tell you because there was a lot of revision, we would revise each other's things. It truly was a joyous collaborative experience that continues because we believe so strongly in our message. I said to Shari when we were first getting going and we just got an agreement in place on how we're going to do it, you know, Shari, really, don't write books to make money. There was this silence. She said, oh, well, we can try, can't we? I said, sure, we can try.
The reality is, most authors aren't going to become mega authors. For us, that truly isn't the goal, it's because we care so passionately. We're not Pollyannas, but we wouldn't have done this if it wasn't an outcome of all our advocacy and all of our writings. Anyway, we're both regular bloggers and feature writers on hearing loss.
Becca: That makes sense.
Shari: Going back to vulnerability, for a second, I remember the first time where I had to revise something that Gael Hannan wrote. She said to me, I can't believe I just revised something Shari Eberts wrote. We're so used to writing independently. We would edit other people, but we had such respect for each other as writers and advocates.
Now we just rip each other apart and say, oh, what about this word? It was definitely a process to get comfortable with that, but I think it makes the book better because we don't really know who wrote what. It was really a shared philosophy that we developed together.
Becca: It comes across that way in the book, too. It doesn't feel like Gael, Shari. It feels very collaborative, for sure.
Gael: Good, that's great. I'm glad to hear that.
Becca: You guys also talk about the stages of life, but your hearing loss journey. You go through these different stages of the process. For me, when I was reading it, as an audiologist and as a clinician, you think about this process that the patients are going through, then they come in to see you, and you're there and you're doing that validation part for them.
You're saying, okay, look, there's hearing loss here. I think we're so quick to provide solutions to that without really giving them time to just take a step back and let them process that. Sometimes these appointments are one hour and you're there to do a job. Sometimes I think that, process of letting them go through that journey is sometimes missed. I took a step back for a second and I was like, this is really important that we think about this process that they're going through.
Gael: That was so great to hear you say that because we realized that the five stages that we have put, some of them are aspirational to our experience and many other people. But then we do say, not everyone gets out of the first stage, which is thinking about it. Some people don't get past the validation. It is aspirational in some ways, but it is an ongoing thing.
It's wonderful to hear you as a clinician understand that when the person leaves your office, you just haven't turned on a switch and everything will be tickety-boo with them. It's wonderful. You're the first clinician I've heard give us feedback on that part of the five stages. Thanks very much. I appreciate that.
Becca: I'm relatively new, I guess. I graduated school in 2016. I'm not that new, but I feel like I'm new in the grand scheme of things. In my last eight years of this, I've seen lots of different things. We're so quick to say, there's a hearing loss here and this is what we should do. We should fit you with hearing aids and away you go. I think it's just important to say. Sometimes for some people, it might be you have a hearing loss and let's just talk about that before we do anything else beyond.
Shari: Absolutely. Even just talking about the concept of hearing loss as a journey, it's not a problem that you solve with a hearing aid, or you solve with any one piece of technology or change in your behavior. It's this whole thing we were talking about with this tool. Just that idea of a journey lets people know that it's okay to take steps forward and take steps backwards. You're not going to put the hearing aids on and it's going to solve all your problems.
I think a lot of people come in to the appointment, and maybe that's what they expect. Maybe it's because they're used to wearing glasses, or why wouldn't they like them? The hearing aids fix everything, and they don't. They help a lot of things, but they're not going to fix everything. If we know that, then we don't blame ourselves.
We don't feel like we're failing. It's just a normal part of this journey. I think it's so important that clinicians recognize that. I love how you were saying, to just say, well, we've diagnosed you with hearing loss, let's talk about that a little bit and what that means for your life before trying to solve it right away.
Becca: On that note, from your guys perspective, having hearing loss and probably have seen many different clinicians throughout your lives, I'm sure, what can we do as hearing care professionals to help in that process? As the hearing clinician, what can we say? Here's a piece of technology, this is my expertise, but I don't have hearing loss. How do we go about getting people in with the right resources, speaking to the right people, finding a community, or whatever it is? From your perspective, how can we make that process better?
Gael: What we were just talking about on what you said is the great start. People who come in with hearing loss for the first time, regardless of how long they had it and not done something about it, they really want someone to listen to them because their family had probably been irritated with them because they haven't done what they should do, because they don't understand how hearing aids work either, and to listen to them and respect their expertise. They might not express it well, they might be struggling with it, but they live with the reality.
That aspect of listening to them is crucial as a first step. The process is knowing what resources exist for them that you can't give them yourself, but what you can do is refer them. Things such as our book, for example, such as suggesting certain Facebook groups that you know to be empathetic, a good Facebook group, LinkedIn, or something. Refer them to the Canadian Hard of Hearing Association, of course. In the US, it's Hearing Loss Association of America, knowing where you can refer them.
The other thing too, and I know Shari probably got lots of stuff too, but perhaps invite their nearest and dearest family members to come in for at least one appointment. We can talk about all these great strategies, but if they're not shared and practiced with their spouse, their parents, or their friends, then they're not going to be effective because communication is a two way street. It's the glue that connects us together. Anything to add to that, Shari? I know I started to ramble.
Shari: No, that was terrific. That was really great. The only thing I would add would be to provide solutions in addition to the technology. Are there a list of communication best practices that you can share with the person with hearing loss? Maybe it's even a piece of paper they can take with them and they can show it to their family, or they can show it to their friends. It seems more official.
We've probably been telling our family a million times, you have to get my attention first, you have to face me. But if it's an official document from the audiologist, perhaps, that has a little bit more impact. It's a lot of things. Like Gael said, I think in that one hour appointment, it's a lot to get through. It's really important to also direct people to find that peer support however they choose to do it.
Gael: And maybe not in that first appointment, either. So often, I guess people come in, you do a hearing assessment and they get home, and the husband says, so, what did Rebecca say? She said, oh, yeah, I got a bit of hearing loss, but it's not so bad.
We know from talking to audiologists that this happens a lot. There's just so much to deliver the information on a timely basis. Hopefully, this is a client you're going to have for a long time. We talk a lot about that client, professional relationship and how valuable it is. We even say it in the book. If you're not getting the type of care that is minimal that we described here, you may want to look elsewhere.
Becca: Yeah, I remember reading that too. You just hope you're one of the good ones. That's a little bit on person or patient-centered care, which I feel like is becoming a little bit of a buzzword in 2022 and 2023, which is a good thing. I think being able to find a hearing care professional that's going to take you on board as to what's best for you in this process and making sure that they're an active participant in that, especially with changes in technology. I know, Shari, you're in the US, so OTCs are now, I guess, readily available there in a way.
Shari: Yes, they are. The products that have come out so far aren't necessarily the right sweet spot, I think. The way I think of OTC, and I'm so excited about it because it's so important to bring access to people who can't afford it or otherwise not take care of their hearing, but I feel like there’s two groups, the group that maybe wants a traditional hearing aid, but they can't afford it.
So far, there are some products in that area, but they're still on the expensive side. They're still $2000-$3000, if you're going to believe that. Go and get the full fitting and all the assistance from a trained professional. The other group is maybe more of a situational user. They have mild to moderate hearing loss.
Maybe they don't really need hearing aids in every situation, but they need it situationally. The products in that area so far don't have that Bluetooth connection. They don't have the things that people are looking for. I remain really, really optimistic, but I think it would take a while to get that sweet spot.
Becca: Yeah, it's the tip of the iceberg. The industry is ever changing all the time. Whatever happens, technology is going to happen. I think everything continues to improve. But the fact of patient-centered care, a person-centered care, and finding someone who's competent, who has your best interests in mind, is going to become more and more important, I think, as time goes on in the hearing industry.
Shari: Absolutely. I hope OTC helps with that. I hope it really pushes the hearing care professionals to value what they really can provide, all of that counseling, all of that understanding. It's not just the devices, it's all those other things that are part of person-centered care.
Gael: Shari and I both agreed that a person will do well working with a trained, empathetic, compassionate hearing care provider. It's wonderful to have options, and we haven't had options. The options are hearing aids, mostly by the big five or six, and they're expensive. Actually, it's one of the few things that's more expensive in the US than it is in Canada, but it's nice to have an option. Having said that, OTC, I haven't even heard a mumble of it on the Canadian health front, but it's nice to have more options available to us.
Becca: Yeah. If anything, it brings awareness to the cause. More people learn about it. You guys also talk in the book about this term, hearing hacks, which you can apply to any situation, whether it's a social event, a theater, or work. I go to Pilates here, and there was a girl in my class just last week with hearing loss, who doesn't like to wear her cochlear implant or her hearing aid to classes.
I think spines get in the way. You're on these reformers that are on your back or you're turned around. I can imagine it would be really, really hard for her in a situation like that without her devices. You guys can provide anyone listening with a couple of hearing hacks. I think that would be a fun way near the end of our chat today.
Gael: Shari, you workout more than I do, which is an understatement.
Shari: It doesn't have to be a workout class.
Gael: No, but that was a good example.
Shari: No, that's a great example. For yoga specifically, I think a lot of hacks are just to be open about it again. Finding the right class is so important with a teacher that's willing to understand and work with you.
Position yourself in the middle of the room. That way, visually, whatever move you're doing, you're turned this way, that way, upside down, you can see people that are all around you. I always try and learn a little bit about the poses first. You can learn online, there are different videos. That way, you're more familiar with it walking in, which I think is terrific.
Gael: Just to add to that, for those who have remote mics as part of their listening system like I had with Oticon, I'm a ReSound user right now because it's the same platform as my cochlear implant, but I've got the mini mic. I have asked the instructor to wear that. It will come directly into my devices, which is a helpful thing.
So many of our hacks are technology based, so many of them are communication game changers, the non technical stuff. These are the things that we can do to help us communicate, so the hacks are a big thing. It was funny, when we break them up with a hack, I went, hack? I'm quite a bit older and I went, no, no, that means someone who's not good at what they do. I did a bit of research and found that I'm 15 years behind the time. Hacks are great, and we love hearing hacks.
Shari: We want to get t-shirts that say, hearing and then maybe hacks on the back or something. I don't know.
Becca: Yeah, or you can have a list of all the hacks on the back. Very cool. Actually, in one of the podcast I was listening to, I can't remember which one, but we mentioned a little bit about some of these associations like HLAA in the US or the Canadian Hearing Loss Association, aren't necessarily getting as many new members I think, as we would maybe like or hope. I don't know why that is. I think maybe it's just changes in social media and things like that. Do you think more people are finding stuff in other places online? What can we do to promote some of these long standing organizations for people with hearing loss?
Gael: I know in Canada that [Shaw 00:32:45], even when I first joined back in the mid 90s. So many people these days, they aren't club joiners. They don't like going to monthly meetings. So many people that I saw that basically, I'm coming to you, give me the information I need to know how to live well, thank you very much, goodbye. Those of us who are involved in these groups have different ideas on it, I think. Some people want socialization, others don't.
The Hearing Loss Association has been much more successful through the way it started with its founder Rocky Stone. I think we need to continue to provide information on our websites and do community projects, which is basically the idea. I haven't really given an answer there because it is a conundrum.
Shari: I would just add a little to that. I think for a lot of people, including myself at the beginning of my journey, I didn't necessarily want to join a hearing loss group. I didn't want to be a person with hearing loss. It's that hard thing to say, hi, I have hearing loss too, wow. Maybe people start a little bit slower, and that's why I think a lot of these Facebook groups are a little bit more of an anonymous way to stick your toe in the water, get some of that peer support, and get some of that information.
Hopefully, over time, you do realize that power of peers and friendship. Maybe you go to an in-person meeting, a Zoom meeting, or a conference. I think it's slow in terms of a process, but I think we should just welcome everyone however they want to get to us. I think HLAA is doing a better job now at being on social media a little bit more and just being where people want to find you.
Becca: Yeah, being visible. Cool. Any final thoughts? We'll make sure to link where to find the book, obviously, in our notes section here. Shari, your blog, is it living with hearing loss? Is that right?
Shari: Yeah, livingwithhearingloss.com.
Becca: Okay, and that's still very much active.
Shari: Yeah, absolutely. It's a blog and it's become a community. It has a Facebook page, it has a Facebook group. People respond to the blog, they share comments with one another. It's been nice to see how that's developed over time a little bit too.
Becca: Cool. What's next for you, guys? You're touring the book, we're doing lots of promotions on the book. How's it all going? You guys are in different places.
Gael: We're invited to do a lot of presentations. It's two of us on Zoom. We speak. We've been doing a lot of speaking over the past year. We've got a busy year coming up with conferences and continuing to do this. We have an audio book coming out in March, the audio book, which is very exciting.
Recently, someone, like the industry leader, said, I don't have time to read books, I just don't, but you guys did an audio book. I said, well, we said it's coming out in March. He said, well, that's when I want to listen to it. That's exciting. What else are we doing, Shari? We're very busy.
Shari: We are very busy because we're advocates on steroids or something. One of our really big goals is to have the book be part of the curriculum for students and burgeoning audiologists because we feel like the more that they can get exposure to real people with hearing loss, real situations, and some of those skills that we talk about, then they'll be equipped to do what we were talking about in those appointments. Talk about the journey, talk about some of those non-technology answers. That's one thing we're definitely going to be working on quite a bit this year. If you have any ideas for how we can get that, let us know.
Becca: I think that's a great idea.
Gael: Rebecca, where did you get your audiology degree?
Becca: I went to UBC in Vancouver.
Gael: Wonderful. I'm speaking to that group. Henry Lam's audiology rehabilitation class at the end of March.
Becca: That's awesome. Have you done that before or is this the first time?
Gael: I used to speak to that group a long time ago when Susan Small was running the program and when I was running a sound sense program. It's a hearing awareness program for elementary students. I would come in and speak. I used to speak at Western, Shari also speaks at, and also universities with audiology programs in the state as Shari's. We'd love to do more of that.
Becca: Cool. Are lots of the conferences this year back in person?
Gael: Some of them. Last year, I did the Canadian Audiology. I spoke there. We did AAA last year. We did ASHA. We're just waiting to hear on a few conferences this year. That's great, totally.
Becca: It's nice to see them coming back face to face.
Shari: We were just at the Consumer Electronics Show, which was super fun as well. We find it as a group of different writers, influencers, and people in the press about hearing loss. We were trekking all over trying to find all the products about hearing loss.
There were some. There weren't maybe as many as we were hoping for. I think everyone with OTC was feeling like it was just going to flick a switch, but it's going to take a little bit of time. It's great to see the innovation across all areas of the teams. Fabulous.
Becca: That would be very cool. Great. Any final thoughts from either of you that you'd like to close with, or anything else that we didn't touch on that you want to share?
Gael: Just thank you for giving us a voice by inviting us here. We just want as many people who live with hearing loss to live better with it. We do appreciate, as I said, giving us a voice by inviting us on your podcast.
Becca: Of course. I'm so happy to have you. I've sent a copy to my dad. Hopefully he'll read it. We never know, but I think it's a fantastic handbook. I think anyone who works with people with hearing loss should definitely read it as well.
Gael: Thank you so much.
Becca: You're very welcome. We'll share it on all of the platforms. The books are available now, so anyone can go out and grab a copy today, probably at any bookstore, I would imagine, and then the audiobook.
Shari: Online and then we have links to a lot of different places on the website, which is hearandbeyond.com.
Becca: Okay, cool. And then the audio book in March, so people can look forward to that.
Gael: We'll let you know.
Becca: Great. Okay, thanks. Thanks so much, guys.
Gael: Thank you.
Shari: Thank you.
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